ADVENT 269
THE WEIGHING IN THE BALANCE OF UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE Peace on earth goodwill unto all sentient beings. David Denison.
setiathome.berkeley.edu Join the Search for Alien Life Message boards: SETI @ home Science: If someone found a signal would the public know ? Message Message 765818 Posted 10 Jun 2008 20:59:38 UTC I am just woundering if there was a signal found. how long wound it take for the public to be informed.
Message 765821 Posted 10 Jun 2008 21:06:26 UTC - in response to Message ID 765818. I am just woundering if there was a signal found. how long wound it take for the public to be informed. I hate to think that this information would be kept to a choosen few. I also think it is possable, that we have already found a signal and the general public will not be told for a very very long time. One more thing, If ET says hello... What are we going to say back? Despite the denials, we\'d not get to know for a few years I\'d guess. There\'s too many vested interests ranging from the church to governments, the military and big business. SETI has the Wow signal and at least one other signal that have ALL the hallmarks of being extra terrestial. But, there\'s always something that stops them saying so ie not confirmed by another source or, there\'s \'nothing in that particular part of the sky\' etc. Yes, Im a cynic now. Just returned to SETI but I know, as I suspect we all do, that we\'ll never get to find \'that\' signal.
Message 765857 Posted 10 Jun 2008 22:14:54 UTC To answer the main question: yes, the public will know once a signal is confirmed, and yes, they will know as soon as possible (days not years).
Message 765952 - Posted 11 Jun 2008 7:12:47 UTC - in response to Message ID 765912 btw - is your response to this based upom what you just (recently) Posted re: sys admin ;)) Actually.. no - though I see where you might have drawn a hopeful conclusion. I just always feel it\'s important to snuff out wrongful conspiracy theories concerning my day job. Things are never are as complicated/secretive/conspiratorial as people think (or hope in some cases) Matt BOINC/SETI@home network/web/science/development person "Any idiot can have a good idea. What is hard is to do it." - Jeanne-Claude
Message 766101 - Posted 11 Jun 2008 7:12:47 UTC - in response to Message ID 765857 To answer the main question: yes, the public will know once a signal is confirmed, and yes, they will know as soon as possible (days not years). Matt How many unconfirmed signals found? Other than the WOW! one
Message 766204 - Posted 11 Jun 2008 15:07:35 UTC A couple of days ago I watched as the graphics catched or stumbled upon a big gaussian (not the same one as mentioned some place else). It did not come up in the numbers thereafter and I did unfortunately not take the number of the WU, sorry to say. Possibly (but very uncertainly) it may have been WU 06mr08ah.13828.82132.6.8.73._2_0 . In any case, that WU had a spike of 1.70, a gaussian of -8.01 (which is low and not the opposite as some other like to tell) and a pulse of 100996 (Yes!). No triplet. If it was that one, it could be interesting...ID: 766204
Message 766238 Posted 11 Jun 2008 16:41:52 UTC It would be nice if somewhere in the seti program when it knows positive that it has a signal that is states across the screen... \"CANDIDATE SIGNAL FOUND!\" like it did in the movie Contact. ;)
Message 766299Posted 11 Jun 2008 18:49:23 UTC - in response to Message ID 766238. Last modified: 11 Jun 2008 18:58:49 UTC It would be nice if somewhere in the seti program when it knows positive that it has a signal that is states across the screen... \"CANDIDATE SIGNAL FOUND!\" like it did in the movie Contact. ;) The problem is, it doesn't know. Only humans can make that determination, and only after revisiting what they determine are *possible* candidates and scanning their locations again and again. How many unconfirmed signals found? Other than the WOW! one Zero No signal has ever been found which had the characteristics of the WOW! signal (ie; unconfirmed origin and not a natural source, either a glitch, interference, or the real thing) The closest that the SETI@Home team ever came was this one- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_source_SHGb02%2B14a Unlike WOW!, this is not something that appeared for an instant and could never be found again; this was found again, and presumably can still be detected by any radio telescope with sufficient capability. This is not an "unconfirmed signal" because it was determined not to be a signal at all. I'll admit, I'm not satisfied with the explanations as to why it was eventually determined not to be a candidate signal, and to my knowledge, no thorough public explanation has ever been given. It's not that I personally think it's a signal (I don't), I'd just like to know exactly why scientists are so sure it's not.
Message 767007- Posted 12 Jun 2008 19:44:03 UTC - in response to Message ID 766299. This is not an "unconfirmed signal" because it was determined not to be a signal at all. Thats my point! People argue over the very basic question whether a signal is a candidate. It doesnt fit the bill so lets dismiss it therefore we havent got an 'unconfirmed \ potential signal' to talk about. I'll admit, I'm not satisfied with the explanations as to why it was eventually determined not to be a candidate signal, and to my knowledge, no thorough public explanation has ever been given. It's not that I personally think it's a signal (I don't), I'd just like to know exactly why scientists are so sure it's not. Im not satisfied either but I think its highly unlikely you'll get scientists to agree. The signal appears to meet all the criteria for a 'candidate' but is dismissed because 'there's nothing in that part of the sky' and something to do with rotational period or something I mean were either of those two conditions in SETI's original conditions for a candidate? I dont think so.Im not satisfied either but I think its highly unlikely you'll get scientists to agree. The signal appears to meet all the criteria for a 'candidate' but is dismissed because 'there's nothing in that part of the sky' and something to do with rotational period or something. I mean were either of those two conditions in SETI's original conditions for a candidate? I dont think so.
Message 767082- Posted 12 Jun 2008 22:12:21 UTC - in response to Message ID 76007. Last modified: 12 Jun 2008 22:18:08 UTC The signal appears to meet all the criteria for a 'candidate' but is dismissed because 'there's nothing in that part of the sky' and something to do with rotational period or something. The WOW! signal did apparently fit the criteria for artificial origin, but an Earthbound source or glitch in the system couldn't be ruled out since it could never be detected again or independently verified by any other telescope. As for the SETI@Home signal, while I think they know the criteria better than we do, I admit that I don't fully understand the explanation. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I don't agree with it. If the signal were as compelling as you seem to think it is, it wouldn't have been dismissed, certainly not by the SETI@Home team which has put years' worth of effort and investment into this project, and certainly not by other SETI teams, like the SETI Institute. I may not be happy that it turned out not be a signal from ET, and I may not be personally satisfied with the explanations, but I have to concede that they know more about the signal than I do and they know more about why it's not a good candidate than I do.
Message 767267- Posted 13 Jun 2008 4:53:21 UTC - in response to Message ID 765952. btw - is your response to this based upom what you just (recently) Posted re: sys admin ;)) Actually.. no - though I see where you might have drawn a hopeful conclusion. I just always feel it\'s important to snuff out wrongful conspiracy theories concerning my day job. Things are never are as complicated/secretive/conspiratorial as people think (or hope in some cases). - Matt Yeah, but everyone likes a god conspiracy theory :)
Message 767919- Posted 14 Jun 2008 9:43:52 UTC - in response to Message ID 767082. The signal appears to meet all the criteria for a 'candidate' but is dismissed because 'there's nothing in that part of the sky' and something to do with rotational period or something. The WOW! signal did apparently fit the criteria for artificial origin, but an Earthbound source or glitch in the system couldn't be ruled out since it could never be detected again or independently verified by any other telescope. As for the SETI@Home signal, while I think they know the criteria better than we do, I admit that I don't fully understand the explanation. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I don't agree with it. If the signal were as compelling as you seem to think it is, it wouldn't have been dismissed, certainly not by the SETI@Home team which has put years' worth of effort and investment into this project, and certainly not by other SETI teams, like the SETI Institute. I may not be happy that it turned out not be a signal from ET, and I may not be personally satisfied with the explanations, but I have to concede that they know more about the signal than I do and they know more about why it's not a good candidate than I do. The "fear" is --I think--that the SETI results (all of them) are being stockpiled and may not be looked at until some very long time in the future and can only be verified by a steerable antenna some months or years later where the beamed signal (if there were an actual one) may well be beaming some other part of the universe--fanciful thoughts but probably needs some elucidation.
Message 768345- Posted 14 Jun 2008 23:30:03 UTC The government is flattered by those that think that they can pull off elaborate conspiracy theories, but the fact is that the government can hardly pull off delivering the mail and issuing passports. The only way for a conspiracy to survive is for there to be only two people that know about it -- and one of them is dead. ID: 768345
Message 770925- Posted 20 Jun 2008 20:37:40 UTC can anyone say where the Wow signal came from? IE where in the sky? ID: 770925
Message 772609 - Posted 23 Jun 2008 22:14:32 UTC - in response to Message ID770925. can anyone say where the Wow signal came from? IE where in the sky? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal "Gentlemen, there are only two types of naval vessels..........Submarines, and Targets" -- U.S. Navy Submarine SONAR Instructor.
Message 774487 - Posted 27 Jun 2008 22:56:00 UTC I've read a lot of that material regarding the WOW! signal. As far as I recall, all potential terrestial 'interference' can be discounted. There were no satellites in the way, there were no probes on their way to Mars of any of the other planets crossing the path, there were no planes in the way etc. The reason WOW! is discounted by the scientific community is mainly because it hasnt been detected since. I mean come on! If we can claim we may be the only intelligence in a galaxy of some 400 billion stars, meaning we're the result of a 400 billion to 1 shot, then, I dont see how the probabilty that Big Ear 'just got lucky' and picked up WOW! the one time. WOW! ticks more boxes than it doesnt. The only box it doesnt really tick is repeated attempts to find it again. The fact it was a 'one off' is just the same thing. ID: 774487
Message 774490 - Posted 27 Jun 2008 23:10:46 UTC - in response to Message ID 774487 Last modified: 27 Jun 2008 23:36:48 UTC I dont see how the probabilty that Big Ear 'just got lucky' and picked up WOW! the one time. That's exactly the point. The problem with WOW is that it only ticks one box, it fails every other. If WOW! is a real signal from ET, then it means ET knew the exact moment that beam 1 of the Big Ear would be pointing at that exact spot in the sky and would ONLY be signaling Earth for the exact 72 seconds it took for Beam 1 to account for Earth's rotation and then immediately turn the signal off as soon as Beam 1 stopped listening and switched to Beam 2. You have to realize; WOW wasn't picked up for an arbitrary length of time... It's not like the Big Ear *just so happened* to pick up the tail end of an ET transmission. It was picked up *only* for the exact the amount of time it takes for the first beam to pass through and scan one area of space as the Earth rotates. When the second beam passed through the same area 3 minutes later, it detected nothing. That's not a coincidence. The chances of it being a genuine detection are more than "400 billion to 1" because the first beam could've been scanning any other single location in the sky or the Big Ear's side of the Earth could've been facing the opposite direction. ET must have been clairvoyant and known exactly when the first beam was going to be scanning the patch of sky where their signal was, and turned it on and then shut it off again *just* so the first beam alone could detect it. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan The first test in science is verifiability; results have to be independently reproduced. You apparently don't put much stock in Occam's Razor... ;) ID: 774490
Message 774499- Posted 27 Jun 2008 23:31:50 UTC - in response to Message ID 774490. [quote]I dont see how the probabilty that Big Ear 'just got lucky' and picked up WOW! the one time. That's exactly the point. The probability that the Big Ear "just got lucky" and just so happened to hear ET for 72 seconds in only one of two synchronous beams and couldn't even detect it 3 minutes later with the second beam, and no other scan has ever picked it up again in 30 years is.....frankly, ridiculous. The problem with WOW is that it only ticks one box, it fails every other. No it ticks more than one box. If you read the reports, Big Ear wasnt pointed in the direction it received WOW! for most of the time before it was received. If WOW! is a real signal from ET, then it means ET knew the exact moment that beam 1 of the Big Ear would be pointing at that exact spot in the sky and would ONLY be signaling Earth for the exact 72 seconds it took for Beam 1 to account for Earth's rotation and then immediately turn the signal off as soon as Beam 1 stopped listening and switched to Beam 2. You state ET just switched the signal off at the right moment. This is a massive asumption. For all we know, they could just have pointed their transmitter in a general direction moved position, transmitted again, moved direction etc. The point overlooked is the transmission was very close to the 1420mhz frequency. All informed scientists tell us this is a great frequency to listen to for the 'marker transmission,' the indication that someone is saying 'hello, we're here!' and not in itself a 'message.'
Message 774504 - Posted 27 Jun 2008 23:44:57 UTC - in response to Message ID 774499. Last modified: 27 Jun 2008 23:47:20 UTC No it ticks more than one box. If you read the reports, Big Ear wasnt pointed in the direction it received WOW! for most of the time before it was received. It only detected WOW when beam 1 scanned the area of the sky it passed through for 72 seconds; the second beam was pointed in the same direction 3 minutes later and detected nothing. You state ET just switched the signal off at the right moment. This is a massive asumption. For all we know, they could just have pointed their transmitter in a general direction moved position, transmitted again, moved direction etc. The point overlooked is the transmission was very close to the 1420mhz frequency. All informed scientists tell us this is a great frequency to listen to for the 'marker transmission,' the indication that someone is saying 'hello, we're here!' and not in itself a 'message.' Hehehe...that's a massive assumption on your part. - I said ET must have switched the signal off after Beam 1 passed through the patch of sky where WOW was detected. - You say ET might have pointed their transmitter in a different direction after Beam 1 passed through. Ummmmm....if WOW is really a signal from ET, then aren't both of those assumptions just as equally likely to be true, and aren't they both equally "massive"? :P
Message 774892 - Posted 28 Jun 2008 20:29:35 UTC - in response to Message ID 774515 i believe that iT was said - a long time ago - that the ANSWER to that particular question is NO - in other words - 'THEY would NOT be told'. Well, whoever said that was WRONG Matt Lebofsky just GAVE THE ANSWER in this thread. There's no reason not to take him or anyone else working on SETI at their word.
Message 776020 - Posted 30 Jun 2008 20:52:30 UTC - in response to Message ID 775008. Last modified: 30 Jun 2008 20:53:48 UTC . . . ever heard of Majestic 12 ? Oh lordy.... Yeah, I heard of Majestic 12....in the video game Deus Ex... LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex How in the heck would the government even KNOW about it before the entire SETI and astronomy community do ?? Or before the press, for that matter ??? And how could they silence all of these people, threaten with death?? Kidnap them??
Message 776095 - Posted 1 Jul 2008 0:03:10 UTC There is no conspiracy--but them paranoids is after us !! DADDIO ID: 776095
Message 776457 - Posted 1 Jul 2008 14:04:39 UTC - in response to Message 776095. There is no conspiracy--but them paranoids is after us !! DADDIO ID
Message 776627 - Posted 1 Jul 2008 21:44:31 UTC - in response to Message ID 774504. No it ticks more than one box. If you read the reports, Big Ear wasnt pointed in the direction it received WOW! for most of the time before it was received. It only detected WOW when beam 1 scanned the area of the sky it passed through for 72 seconds; the second beam was pointed in the same direction 3 minutes later and detected nothing. You state ET just switched the signal off at the right moment. This is a massive asumption. For all we know, they could just have pointed their transmitter in a general direction moved position, transmitted again, moved direction etc. The point overlooked is the transmission was very close to the 1420mhz frequency. All informed scientists tell us this is a great frequency to listen to for the 'marker transmission,' the indication that someone is saying 'hello, we're here!' and not in itself a 'message.' Hehehe...that's a massive assumption on your part. If WOW is genuine, then one of those possibilities has to be the case, and both of them seem to require a clairvoyant knowledge of how long it would take for the first beam to pass through a patch of sky and account for the Earth's rotation.
Message 777228 - Posted 2 Jul 2008 17:05:34 UTC - in response to Message ID 776627. You originally said, WOW! only ticked one box. Let's review how many boxes WOW! actually does tick Nearly all of the scientific community states that the ideal frequency to look for a signal would be 1420mhz. This is where WOW! was found. First tick in the box. You're right, this *IS* a tick in the box; a parameter invented by the humans who assigned it as a box to tick in the first place (though not without good reason). That in itself doesn't necessarily make it more likely to be an ETI signal than not, however. ...and "nearly all in the scientific community" is an extreme exaggeration. Even among SETI scientists, there is wide disagreement over whether radio is "ideal" to listen to for ETI in the first place. 1420mhz is universally banned for terrestrial transmission ergo, WOW! could not have been terrestial in origin. Second tick in the box. Not unless the "transmission" was in fact a glitch in the Big Ear in the first place; in that case it would have very much been terrestrial in origin. The direction of WOW! was not that of one of the planets in the solar system. Third tick in the box. None of those are really "ticks in the box" if the WOW! Signal since none of those objects were in the direction of the second beam three minutes later either, and a glitch could also be described as an unnatural source for the narrow band detection. WOW! signal intensity and duration matched that expected due to the Earth's rotation. Six ticks in the box. ...but failed the expected confirmation by the second beam, suggesting that there was really nothing extraterrestrial being detected in the first place. I could go on but I think my point is proven. Only to those who persist in the blind faith notion that WOW! was a significant extraterrestrial detection or disavow alternative explanations. It is correct Big Ear only picked up ONE instance of the signal however, its wrong to assume the sender 'switched off' the signal at just the right time. It could be purely co incidental if the signal beam was transmitted for a specific duration then transmitted in a totally different direction. Again, why is it "wrong" to assume that the sender switched off the signal after it was detected by the first beam but right for you to assume that the sender switched the signal's direction after it was detected by the first beam???
The possibility that a genuine ETI signal signal being beamed from light years away would be picked up by the first beam for 72 seconds and not by the second 3 minutes later is so vastly remote, that statistically speaking, Occam's Razor would dictate that the sender knew when the first beam was no longer detecting it. ...then again, Occam's Razor also suggests it wasn't an ETI signal. I cannot seriously take your statement that searching at 1420mhz is a massive assumption on our part.
Message 777474 - Posted 2 Jul 2008 21:30:52 UTC - in response to Message ID 777228. You originally said, WOW! only ticked one box. Let's review how many boxes WOW! actually does tick You're right, this *IS* a tick in the box; a parameter invented by the humans who assigned it as a box to tick in the first place (though not without good reason). That in itself doesn't necessarily make it more likely to be an ETI signal than not, however. ...and "nearly all in the scientific community" is an extreme exaggeration. Even among SETI scientists, there is wide disagreement over whether radio is "ideal" to listen to for ETI in the first place. 1420mhz is universally banned for terrestrial transmission ergo, WOW! could not have been terrestial in origin. Second tick in the box.Not unless the "transmission" was in fact a glitch in the Big Ear in the first place; in that case it would have very much been terrestrial in origin. The direction of WOW! was not that of one of the planets in the solar system. Third tick in the box. None of those are really "ticks in the box" if the WOW! Signal since none of those objects were in the direction of the second beam three minutes later either, and a glitch could also be described as an unnatural source for the narrow band detection. WOW! signal intensity and duration matched that expected due to the Earth's rotation. Six ticks in the box. ...but failed the expected confirmation by the second beam, suggesting that there was really nothing extraterrestrial being detected in the first place. I could go on but I think my point is proven. Only to those who persist in the blind faith notion that WOW! was a significant extraterrestrial detection or disavow alternative explanations. It is correct Big Ear only picked up ONE instance of the signal however, its wrong to assume the sender 'switched off' the signal at just the right time. It could be purely co incidental if the signal beam was transmitted for a specific duration then transmitted in a totally different direction. Again, why is it "wrong" to assume that the sender switched off the signal after it was detected by the first beam but right for you to assume that the sender switched the signal's direction after it was detected by the first beam??? I'm not understanding that. Either Maybe I'm stupid, but if you believe that it was a genuine ETI signal, then aren't both possibilities equally likely and equally as much of a coincidence? The sender doesnt even need to know (or indeed care) about the rotational speed of Earth. The possibility that a genuine ETI signal signal being beamed from light years away would be picked up by the first beam for 72 seconds and not by the second 3 minutes later is so vastly remote, that statistically speaking, Occam's Razor would dictate that the sender knew when the first beam was no longer detecting it. ...then again, Occam's Razor also suggests it wasn't an ETI signal. I cannot seriously take your statement that searching at 1420mhz is a massive assumption on our part. My premise is not that WOW! was indisputably a signal from another civilisation beyond our solar system but, one that a probably signal has been debunked when it satisfies many of the criteria SETI and the scientific community have set out for determining a signal IS from an extra terrestial civilisation. From all the papers I've read, even Erhman now seems to suggest WOW! was not a glitch and ticked more boxes than it didnt. What Im saying is, definitely discounting WOW! is wrong. It should be classed as unproven but potentially a viable signal.
Message 777961 - Posted 3 Jul 2008 14:31:49 UTC - in response Message ID 77474 Last modified: 3 Jul 2008 14:32:31 UTC You quoted Sagan previously regarding extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence yet, you mention the spectre of life so alien we possibly could not comprehend it as such. We may as well argue that rock on the beach nearby is life but 'not as we know it.' Not sure I follow you there... What Im saying is, definitely discounting WOW! is wrong. It should be classed as unproven but potentially a viable signal. Here's the thing:
Message 780281- Posted 7 Jul 2008 15:54:28 UTC Hello all This post is a very very good read. I see now how people have different ideas on the known universe. Is the WOW signal truely a WOW or not? We may never know...ID: 780281
Message 780340 - Posted 7 Jul 2008 19:23:37 UTC - in response to Message ID 780281. Last modified: 7 Jul 2008 19:24:34 UTC the earth has been here for millions of years. (this is very short time) The Earth has been here for about ~ 4.6 billion years. When the WOW signal was found, how long was it before the public was informed? I don't think the public was ever officially "informed" since the scientists at the Big Ear felt there was nothing to "inform" them about; there was no confirmation, hence, nothing to announce. So there were never any public press conferences on "WOW!" Next question is that, every signal that comes from earth has some kind of data in it. It is very hard for me to take in that the WOW signal cant be traced back to some kind of transmition. If the signal came from earth, it would be very easy to know what it was and where it came from. Nope. http://www.bigear.org/6equj5.htm The wow signal must have came from deep space. Many SETI scientists disagree with you. Also, "must" is a strong word. Like I said, it's possible. Also there would be some kind of data in the WOW signal. Since Big Ear only recorded the intensity of the radio waves, it did not record any data that might have been encoded on the signal. Of course, *IF* any data was encoded on the signal in the first place; there's no evidence of that. I know there is alot of back ground noise that could make a signal Just to be clear and fair, to my knowledge there is no known natural background noise in interstellar space capable of producing an emission similar to WOW! But most signals that have came from humans has some kind of data. It is safe to say that any ET that can produce a signal that would be dected from earth would be far more advance than us, and would put some kind of data in the signal also. I agree that ET would likely encode data in any emission we detected. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing if any data was encoded in WOW!
Message 780360- Posted 7 Jul 2008 20:48:46 UTC I disagree with a number of Taurus' points.
Message 780376 - Posted 7 Jul 2008 21:34:25 UTC Last modified: 7 Jul 2008 21:35:33 UTC Centenary writes: "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else." (Han Solo) ID: 780376
Message 780384 - Posted 7 Jul 2008 21:55:39 UTC Thank you for your views centenary , Taurus. I did not know that there was not a recording of the actual signal. It seems to me that there would be some kind of recording of this signal somewhere. ( i know if i was working there that would be the first thing I would do is record it )
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